Topic: deltarune Weird Route BUR

The bulk update request #13088 is pending approval.

mass update snowgrave -> weird_route_(deltarune)
create implication snowgrave (566) -> weird_route_(deltarune) (0)
create implication weird_route_(deltarune) (0) -> deltarune (27948)
create alias snowgrave_route_(deltarune) (0) -> weird_route_(deltarune) (0)
mass update thorn_ring -> thorn_ring_(deltarune)
create implication thorn_ring_(deltarune) (0) -> deltarune (27948)
change category weird_route_(deltarune) (0) -> copyright

Reason: As deltarune Chapter 5 is planned to release later down the year, I think it's a good idea to polish up the tags pertaining to the Weird Route before the influx of new uploads inevitably hits.

Currently the main tag for this route is snowgrave, which was fine while we were only up to 2 chapters of release. The new Weird Route scene in Chapter 4, however, led to a lot of art that wasn't actually relevant to the Snowgrave spell itself. And as more chapters come out and more content is added to the route, this issue will only grow in scope. Thus, this BUR.

I propose that weird_route_(deltarune) becomes the main tag for the route. It's the closest we have to an official name, given how we first got the name from within the game's own code, how the name is referenced by Susie in one of her dialogues, and how one of the developers of deltarune, Fred Wood, has consistently refered to it as such.

snowgrave will only be for the spell itself, or just any art related to Noelle freezing people over, honestly. It'll be a pain going through all the old art and readding this tag, but better to get it done now than later. And thorn_ring will stay as it is, of course.

I'm still pretty new to BURs, so hopefully the way I'm making this one doesn't cause any problems. Let me know if you have any questions and/or concerns.

Edit: Added "snowgrave_route_(deltarune)" as an alias for the main tag. It's another popular name for the route oft used during the Chapter 2 era of the game, and anyone adding "snowgrave" will see both tags. This should hopefully help people who are used to tagging "snowgrave" to Weird Route uploads switch over easier.

how about deltarune_weird_route so it show up in the search result as soon as people looking up deltarune related things

whatismyname1234 said:
how about deltarune_weird_route so it show up in the search result as soon as people looking up deltarune related things

Most character tags start with the name of the character before appending the media they're from in parenthesis. This is just to keep consistent with that.

Based on this update from Toby Fox, it seems Chapter 5 will likely release in May or early June. Figured I might as well bump up this thread while I wait.

I don't think a tag for a specific story route in a specific video game is a good idea. Either it sets the precedent that every story route in every video game can have a tag, which gets very messy very quickly, or we have to decide what makes certain story routes special enough to get their own tag, which is difficult because there is nothing that makes Deltarune's branching story special in a way that matters to e621.

eightoflakes said:
[...] there is nothing that makes Deltarune's branching story special in a way that matters to e621.

Porn. The Weird Route is special because people draw a lot of porn about it.

No one bothered to make a tag for Undertale's genocide route because barely any artists cared to sexualize it. Conversely, the Weird Route has a lot of undertones of romance and abuse, even before its infamous Chapter 4 scene that some people interpreted as rape. Next thing you know, there's over 500 uses of the tag today.

So now you have people who specifically search the tag to find porn of the Weird Route because they're into that, and other people who add it to their blacklist because they aren't, and also people who like seeing Kris X Noelle artwork, but don't want to see any Weird Route art of those two because they find it off-putting. This tag helps all of these people, and to suggest removing it would make their experiences on this site worse, especially those who want to blacklist it.

As for which video game story routes deserve tags in general, you need only ask two simple questions: Would a reasonable amount of people search for this tag? And, would a reasonable amount of people wish to blacklist this tag? I am confident that for the Weird Route, the answer is "yes" to both.

anonym_contradiction said:
Porn. The Weird Route is special because people draw a lot of porn about it.

That is not in any way special to e621

anonym_contradiction said:
So now you have people who specifically search the tag to find porn of the Weird Route because they're into that, and other people who add it to their blacklist because they aren't, and also people who like seeing Kris X Noelle artwork, but don't want to see any Weird Route art of those two because they find it off-putting. This tag helps all of these people, and to suggest removing it would make their experiences on this site worse, especially those who want to blacklist it.

As with all of the appeals to "this generic tag should exist for blacklisting", this falls flat because it's going to both over and under block whatever people aren't wanting to see, they should blacklist whatever themes they don't like, not one specific tag for one specific route in one specific game

donovan_dmc said:
As with all of the appeals to "this generic tag should exist for blacklisting", this falls flat because it's going to both over and under block whatever people aren't wanting to see, they should blacklist whatever themes they don't like, not one specific tag for one specific route in one specific game

Aye, fair enough. This post in particular convinced me of your reasoning, since it's only a single line of dialogue that lead to the tag be applied.

So, are we to simply alias away the snowgrave tag into deltarune now? That would kinda suck. I can only speak for myself, yet I'm sure I'm not the only one who frequently searches the tag to see if there's any new artwork under it.

I admit I've run out of reasoning beyond "it would just kinda suck" though. So if former staff say it's more appropriate for the site this way, I'll believe them.

Oh, and one more thing:

donovan_dmc said:
(Having a lot of porn) is not in any way special to e621

I ask this purely out of confusion, but... isn't that simply not true? I know e621 isn't a porn site, but most people still use it as one, yes? One look at the popular section will tell you that. Sorry if this seems silly to bring up, it's just reading that statement didn't sit right with me for whatever reason.

Tagging based on a story route is not TWYS in the slightest. A viewer with no background knowledge of deltarune would have any idea what does or does not make an image 'snowgrave'/'weird_route'. Hell even with that knowledge it's not always clear, since AUs and edgy predictions about future chapters are so common.

This is a case where it would work great as a (lore) tag, but those can't be added anymore...

listlesssky said:
A viewer with no background knowledge of deltarune would have any idea what does or does not make an image 'snowgrave'/'weird_route'.

Does that really matter? A person unfamiliar with deltarune isn't going to be uploading any deltarune artwork regardless.

And the tag IS applied via TWYS, usually based on dialogue ("Proceed", "Noelle will get stronger" and whatnot) or references to certain scenes in the Weird Route (The snowgrave scene and "Equip" scene in particular). It's never done based on information outside of the image itself.

anonym_contradiction said:
Does that really matter? A person unfamiliar with deltarune isn't going to be uploading any deltarune artwork regardless.

Some users only upload art they personally like, not everyone does. Any high volume uploader who scouts a wide range of artists is going to be uploading franchises they are unfamiliar with. If the only people uploading Deltarune fanart were Deltarune fans there would be a lot less Deltarune artwork on the site.

anonym_contradiction said:
And the tag IS applied via TWYS, usually based on dialogue ("Proceed", "Noelle will get stronger" and whatnot) or references to certain scenes in the Weird Route (The snowgrave scene and "Equip" scene in particular). It's never done based on information outside of the image itself.

You have to have played Deltarune, watched a playthrough, or read a wiki to recognise that phrases like "proceed" or "Noelle will get stronger" are related to the weird route. Someone who has never played or read about Deltarune before will not read "proceed" and both understand that is is related to a story route in the game and be able to name that story route. Therefore, it requires outside knowledge.

eightoflakes said:
You have to have played Deltarune, watched a playthrough, or read a wiki to recognise that phrases like "proceed" or "Noelle will get stronger" are related to the weird route. Someone who has never played or read about Deltarune before will not read "proceed" and both understand that is is related to a story route in the game and be able to name that story route. Therefore, it requires outside knowledge.

By this logic we would never be able to tag anything, knowing what a chair looks like is outside knowledge, you aren't born intrinsically knowing what a chair is

Honestly, even someone who is intimately familiar with deltarune can not tell if a work is weird_route or not. Tons of works with the tag have none of the indicators discussed in this thread. There's no useful definition we could give it that respects TWYS.

post #4209510
post #5606258
post #4213424

Noelle uses plenty of ice magic in the normal route too, even when just defending. And there's tons of edgy Kris/Noelle and Soul related art that isn't weird route either. Hell you can even get the thorn ring and then continue on the normal route like nothing happened. These overlaps will likely only get worse as more chapters release, especially if the author's claim that there's only one ending turns out to be true.

The snowgrave/weird route is by definition a backstory, one often disconnected from what appears visually in a work. Trying to concoct some objective method of sorting it based on TWYS feels like trying to shove a square peg in a round hole. Once again it would be a perfect use of lore tags, but that system is essentially defunct, so it shouldn't exist.

anonym_contradiction said:
And the tag IS applied via TWYS, usually based on dialogue

Dialog is generally not TWYS. Dialog is just that, dialogue. The meaning of the dialog lands into TWYK territory. (Yes there are some exceptions, but they're the exception, not the norm.)

After reading everything, I've decided to make a few changes to the BUR. Here's my explanation for them.

• update thorn_ring -> thorn_ring_(deltarune) + implicate thorn_ring_(deltarune) -> deltarune

This one's just future-proofing. The phrase "thorn ring" isn't exclusive to deltarune; it most likely has been and will continue to be used in other media. All of the thorn_ring posts here are of deltarune, so mass-renaming should be the way to go.

• category weird_route_(deltarune) -> copyright

This is the big one. I now think this tag would be best off as a copyright tag, similar to memes and other trend-based tags. And more importantly, it'd only be tagged based on what's in the image.

This tag shouldn't be "This image takes place in the Weird Route according to the the person who made it, even if there isn't any direct evidence of such", like how lore tags are used, but rather "This image either depicts a scene from the Weird Route or has a reference to it". This should hopefully clear up the TWYS discourse.

Of the examples brought up, post #4209510 and post #4213424 would no longer have the tag like so (post #5606258 could go either way depending on who you ask), and even something like post #2937920, which lore-wise does take place on the Weird Route. The end result is that, while some images will need to be removed, it will be a lot easier to categorize what does qualify for the weird_route_(deltarune) tag while still maintaining many of the prior images.

Hopefully this is better. I recognize a few people were treating this like a lore tag when I was never going for that angle to begin with. Major apologies for the lack of clarification there.

Of course, none of what I changed tackles the whole "story routes shouldn't have a tag" argument. Mainly because I don't know how to, sorry. I still think a tag like this is worth keeping simply because people are evidently more passionate about this route than they are with something like Undertale's Genocide route, both in artists creating works and people uploading them here.