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The Pedophile_Iconography tag got obliterated due to promoting IRL crimes, even if the artist didn't mean to do so. So why are there still posts with nazifur artwork promoting fascism and nazi ideologies? Can we obliterate those too, please?
Updated by Versperus
reversesixtynine said:
So why are there still posts with nazifur artwork promoting fascism and nazi ideologies?
Because "being a fascist" isn't illegal? I mean, we're talking about the difference between supporting a system of governance vs wanting to have sex with children.
It's important to archive bigoted art even if we find it reprehensible. Works like Birth of a Nation and The Eternal Jew have legitimate historical and cultural value. This includes Nazi furry artwork. We need to learn from these things and part of that is having them available in the proper context.
That being said, CSAM is an exception given how it involves causing great harm to children to view or produce. There's also allegedly been people making connections using pedophile iconography with the intention of committing other crimes later. (I emphasize, allegedly.) As such, I can see good reason for a private platform to choose not to host art with pedophile iconography.
I don't realistically think Nazi furry art, or archiving this art, causes real world harm in the way pedophile iconography allegedly does.
reversesixtynine said:
The Pedophile_Iconography tag got obliterated due to promoting IRL crimes, even if the artist didn't mean to do so. So why are there still posts with nazifur artwork promoting fascism and nazi ideologies? Can we obliterate those too, please?
Some people just like the Nazi uniform design. It's kinda fetishized by some people, I think. It's hard to say which ones are actually "promoting IRL crimes".
Keep in mind it's hypothesized (though NOT confirmed) that pedophile_iconography was nuked* because it was sorta creating a pro-pedo space that the Mods wanted to exterminate. Do we have a pro-Nazi space forming that needs similar "extermination"? I don't know. I've never seen anything to indicate that, but I generally don't look at Nazi content.
* It's down to 3 posts now
This might be trickier than pedophile symbols because there are more cases where the use of nazi imagery is nuanced with more good-faith uses. Everything from art based on historical events to parodies to art of media featuring nazis/nazi parodies to kink art. Someone drawing a furrified Tom of Finland homage with an SS-styled cap is likely different in intent and message than straight up pro-fascist art.
As per the newly-added clause in the Uploading Guidelines:
The mere presence of such iconography or colours is not grounds for deletion. If you find posts that "promote or encourage real-life criminal activity", feel free to report (not flag) them for violating the Uploading Guidelines.
The difference here really comes down to how active the iconography is today, and if its being used by bad actors to actively further something. In the case of what we removed, it had crossed into that territory.
crocogator said:
Do we have a pro-Nazi space forming that needs similar "extermination"? I don't know. I've never seen anything to indicate that, but I generally don't look at Nazi content.
I've definitely seen certain images pop up over and over in the faves and comments of people banned for being bigots. I don't think the main one I'm thinking of (the anti-trans lion one) contains nazi imagery. I have also seen some... dubious conversations going on in the comments of pro-fascist art.
In simple words: Just Blacklist it
rainbow_dash said:
The difference here really comes down to how active the iconography is today, and if its being used by bad actors to actively further something. In the case of what we removed, it had crossed into that territory.
That sounds like a good guideline. Thanks for clarifying!
rainbow_dash said:
The difference here really comes down to how active the iconography is today, and if its being used by bad actors to actively further something. In the case of what we removed, it had crossed into that territory.
should we consider doing the same with the zoop stuff, then? the zoophile_iconography tag is, as far as I can tell almost exclusively people using the stuff totally unironically.
We specified "exploitation of people or animals" for a reason.
We've reviewed some posts, but that doesn't mean we're done yet.
thegreatwolfgang said:
As per the newly-added clause in the Uploading Guidelines:
- Promotion of Real-Life Harm, Crimes, or Exploitation: Do not submit posts that promote or encourage real-life criminal activity, non-consensual harm, or exploitation of people or animals, including through the use of iconography or other types of symbols. These themes may be depicted in posts as long as it does not promote real-life activity.
The mere presence of such iconography or colours is not grounds for deletion. If you find posts that "promote or encourage real-life criminal activity", feel free to report (not flag) them for violating the Uploading Guidelines.
Theoretically a post with the slogan "punch a Nazi" falls under that (by common sense it encourages physical violence) and can be freely reported.
justannormalguy said:
In simple words: Just Blacklist it
But then I wouldn't be able to get as angry over stuff on the internet I don't like!!
joke
strahaspilot said:
It's important to archive bigoted art even if we find it reprehensible. Works like Birth of a Nation and The Eternal Jew have legitimate historical and cultural value. This includes Nazi furry artwork. We need to learn from these things and part of that is having them available in the proper context.That being said, CSAM is an exception given how it involves causing great harm to children to view or produce. There's also allegedly been people making connections using pedophile iconography with the intention of committing other crimes later. (I emphasize, allegedly.) As such, I can see good reason for a private platform to choose not to host art with pedophile iconography.
I don't realistically think Nazi furry art, or archiving this art, causes real world harm in the way pedophile iconography allegedly does.
Having the gall to comparing someone's fursona sieg hailing to important films showing proof of the holocaust is insane. I think e6 is just going to off itself at this point, poor moderation, poorer community. Oh well, whatya gonna do?
czyszy said:
Theoretically a post with the slogan "punch a Nazi" falls under that (by common sense it encourages physical violence) and can be freely reported.
If you choose to willfully misconstrued what's written and make a series of invalid reports you'll get yourself an abuse of site tools citation.
czyszy said:
Theoretically a post with the slogan "punch a Nazi" falls under that (by common sense it encourages physical violence) and can be freely reported.
I, for one, am against all forms of hate_art since I believe that it could lead to harassment towards an individual or group.
However, I wouldn't go as far as saying it could unironically promote real-life violence against people.
You will have to see if the post is being serious with its call to violence, which a "serious" post wouldn't be accepted on e621 in the first place.
Updated
thegreatwolfgang said:
hate_art
Man that's a terrible tag. There's no consistency at all with what's in it.
What side called Epstein Island a conspiracy theory, again? The side that calls everyone to the right of them nazis to justify oppressing/silencing/murdering them.
regsmutt said:
Man that's a terrible tag. There's no consistency at all with what's in it.
Seems like almost half of them are just politics.
It might be useful when someone wants to blacklist post like these.
post #5858735 post #5512893
Though considering hate_art -politics only has 28 posts, they can just blacklist individual posts by id:number
If it's not within the image, artists' intentions shouldn't be tagged.
Without context, Idk what about these are hate_art
post #6139005 post #4161679
regsmutt said:
Man that's a terrible tag. There's no consistency at all with what's in it.
I know, that's why topic #58662 exists. However, this is the only tag that can be blacklisted of this nature.
And no, blacklisting politics would not be an option since not all of them depict "hate".
redphoenix42 said:
What side called Epstein Island a conspiracy theory, again? The side that calls everyone to the right of them nazis to justify oppressing/silencing/murdering them.
I'm literally talking about art that glorifies nazism. As in, straightforward with swastikas and SS symbols. If you're going "Erm, is everyone a nazi then?" Then you're completely downplaying the problem. A lot of posts on this site have pro-nazi imagery, as well as posts with comment sections supporting nazism openly. Go slither back into the grass, you snake.
regsmutt said:
This might be trickier than pedophile symbols because there are more cases where the use of nazi imagery is nuanced with more good-faith uses. Everything from art based on historical events to parodies to art of media featuring nazis/nazi parodies to kink art. Someone drawing a furrified Tom of Finland homage with an SS-styled cap is likely different in intent and message than straight up pro-fascist art.
It should be pretty obvious when something is clearly good faith. With the pedophile_iconography tag, there were artists who weren't pedophiles doing it just because of the taboo nature of the symbols. Same could be said of using swastikas and having nazifur art. In fact, there's even direct nazi rallying cries, gestures, and dog whistles in some artworks that just seem to go unpunished. E621 doesn't have to abide by the first amendment. If they did, then this ticket wouldn't exist.
imthinkinarbys said:
Because "being a fascist" isn't illegal? I mean, we're talking about the difference between supporting a system of governance vs wanting to have sex with children.
Neither of them are illegal if we're talking about artwork. The pedophile_iconography ban was because it was attracting pedophiles to the site and giving them spaces to contact each other. That's why the comment sections were always locked. But the same doesn't seem to be said regarding nazi imagery, even though many times on the site, these posts tend to either cause a horde of ghoulish chuds to swarm the comment section, or cause intense arguments.
justannormalguy said:
In simple words: Just Blacklist it
If it were that simple, then the pedophile_iconography ban would not have happened. There are posts allowing bad people to congregate, and having one get banned, but not the other is extremely weird. Hell, if anyone remembers that one Martha Speaks art that was shown online by a mass shooter, the entire comment section was filled with people cheering on a deranged killer with racist ideologies. The comment section was nuked and locked over just that alone. I've seen multiple nazis in comment sections proudly using images with nazi iconography as their profile avatar to indicate to others about their extremist ideas and to spread them. It's not just "Oh thing bad because this person doesn't like it." It's that it's being used as a rallying cry to garner nazi support.
You don't have to reply to each and every post. Just click "reply" and it'll add a new quote below the text.
redphoenix42 said:
What side called Epstein Island a conspiracy theory, again? The side that calls everyone to the right of them nazis to justify oppressing/silencing/murdering them.
Ok, we're not doing this right now. You're decrying exaggerated over-generalizations while simultaneously making exaggerated over-generalizations; I'd recommend you think before you speak, and if the only things you have to say are rage-baiting non sequiturs, I'll ask you to find a more appropriate location to vent.
aacafah said:
Ok, we're not doing this right now. You're decrying exaggerated over-generalizations while simultaneously making exaggerated over-generalizations; I'd recommend you think before you speak, and if the only things you have to say are rage-baiting non sequiturs, I'll ask you to find a more appropriate location to vent.
Idk what's going with that guy.
https://e621.net/forum_topics/62255?page=1#forum_post_482163
His former post looks strange too.
Updated
Nazi shit can be used in an artistic way, Fuga's Berman Empire is explicitly based on Nazis, Wolfenstein's plot centers around Nazis, and so does Inglorious Basterds, there are multiple fictional characters who are Nazis like Red Skull, or you can simply appreciate the aesthetic.
There is no artistic merit in promoting statutory rape.
Blacklist. Use it.
lenkagetsu said:
Nazi shit can be used in an artistic way, Fuga's Berman Empire is explicitly based on Nazis, Wolfenstein's plot centers around Nazis, and so does Inglorious Basterds, there are multiple fictional characters who are Nazis like Red Skull, or you can simply appreciate the aesthetic.There is no artistic merit in promoting statutory rape.
Blacklist. Use it.
I've seen people use it with artistic merit to depict depraved characters. And yes, while there are also artistic depictions of fascism that should be allowed, I am specifically talking about posts that either glorify or attract nazis on purpose.
lenkagetsu said:
Nazi shit can be used in an artistic way, Fuga's Berman Empire is explicitly based on Nazis, Wolfenstein's plot centers around Nazis, and so does Inglorious Basterds, there are multiple fictional characters who are Nazis like Red Skull, or you can simply appreciate the aesthetic.There is no artistic merit in promoting statutory rape.
Blacklist. Use it.
I'd say the problem is further from that; if we were to assert that there can be some artistic merit in media that may promote (or at the very least be perceived as promoting) things like statutory rape, there still comes a point where the creator(s), publisher(s), & hoster(s) of that work must decide if the merits of such work outweigh its potential (or realized) harms, and after careful & thorough investigation & consideration, we've made our decision for the removed content.
We've had similar discussions for certain Nazi content (after all, it's no secret that a lot of the staff is LGBTQ+; we're not exactly fans of seeing it), but with the breadth of knowledge the staff team has about how users interact with such content, we have conclusively & repeatedly determined that it is nowhere near the content we've already handled.
That said, should that change, we've very explicitly written this rule to cover that & similarly harmful content, & we're not afraid to remove such posts should that be needed. At present, it is not needed.
Updated
reversesixtynine said:
I've seen people use it with artistic merit to depict depraved characters. And yes, while there are also artistic depictions of fascism that should be allowed, I am specifically talking about posts that either glorify or attract nazis on purpose.
It's up to the site's staff to see if they are appropriate to continue keeping around.
I'm sure if Neo-Nazism resurged in society to the point it cannot be simply condoned, then there will be a similar purge just like with what happened to pedophile_iconography.
All you can do now is ensure posts get properly tagged (so that blacklists can work) and report any posts you find that actively promotes or encourages real-life criminal activity.
Otherwise, there is no point continuing to complain about such posts and you could get slapped for Refusal to Use Blacklist instead.
Updated
aacafah said:
-snip-
So what I'm hearing is that if we stumble across images with a nazi meetup- even if it's subtle- going on in the comments we should flag it.
regsmutt said:
So what I'm hearing is that if we stumble across images with a nazi meetup- even if it's subtle- going on in the comments we should flag it.
I'd say that's more a matter of user conduct, so if it's one or the other, it's better to report it to us mods (instead of flagging for janitors) & let us pass it along to the janitors if deemed necessary; mods & admins have better tools to validate those claims & punish offenders than janitors do.
As for the posts themselves, I'd say it's a judgement call; we're not expecting perfection, but I would say to try & narrowly interpret the rule, & you can always ask one of our janitors for their input if you're unsure. Remember, janitors already screen these posts for approval, & they know what they're looking for, so they should be able to filter out the vast majority of these on their own.
I'll leave more specific guidance to one of them should they choose to weigh in; it's a bit out of my wheelhouse.
This has ran it's course.
